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On loyalty for unselfish reasons
Okay. I've thought about it, and I can now explain why I like Peony/Jade, Aizen/Gin and similar pairings. ("Similar?!" you might be saying, if you haven't heard my explanation yet.)
It's because I have a button. To put it verbosely, this button is, "A person who is powerful and in control, in his or her own right, who still willingly chooses to serve another person for unselfish reasons."
(Tales of the Abyss pushes this button a lot.)
Let's take Jade and Peony first, because they're the best example I have readily available. Jade is, by anyone's definition, a powerful and in-control kind of guy. He is incredibly strong in the fonic artes, and he's proven himself more than capable of gaining authority without outside intervention: his intelligence and abilities earned him adoption into the powerful, militarily-active noble family of Curtiss. He'd invented entire fields of research by the time he was in his teens, and is kind of indirectly responsible for about 75% of the game's plot. And for the icing on the cake, he's extremely sardonic and smug. This is a man who could easily do whatever he wanted. He has, in the past.
But Jade serves Peony.
And not just literally: I mean, Peony is the Emperor of Malkuth, and as a soldier and a noble of Malkuth, Jade is technically bound to him. But Jade is willingly bound to him, as well -- and for someone who is like, clinically antisocial, that's awfully impressive. After killing Professor Nebilim, Jade worked feverishly to resurrect her, only to create a monster. He believed fomicry, the art of creating replicas, was-- well, I won't say morally right or anything, I doubt he even thought about the morals of it. But he credits his friendship with Peony for his decision to stop it, and declare fomicry a "forbidden technology".
Something about Peony is worth it, to Jade. Maybe he sees in Peony something he doesn't havelike human decency, or maybe he's caught up by the confidence and charisma that make Luke and Dist so uncomfortable (according to Guy). Maybe he thinks Peony is a genuinely good ruler. Who knows?
(Of course, Peony also teaches his antisocial little brain all these important lessons, like, "how to feel sad," and, "what it means for people to die." In the Tales of Fandom game, Jade freaked out when Peony was stabbed, and had a muted conversation with Peony about grief and death and what they really mean etc. These are valuable lessons for your underdeveloped psychopath!)
This button is also pressed by Van->Guy->Luke. Van's loyalty to Guy, long after it stopped being convenient for him -- long after Guy outright told him that they weren't on the same side anymore -- when he still up to the end would've welcomed Guy, just because of that long-ago oath... that's really something, in your Big Bad Villain. And the same with Guy himself: he had every reason in the world to want to kill Luke, but he still found something worth following there, things that Luke could teach him that were worth learning, and he set all of that aside to insist that he is Luke's servant -- even when he'd regained his noble title and had no more reason to ever be anyone's servant again. (Well, except Peony's.) (And Peony turned out to be a way harsher taskmaster.) (In the sense of, even more irresponsible.)
But the Six God-Generals -- they don't hit this button. They are following Van, by and large, because his beliefs coincide with theirs, or because he can do something for them. Save Legretta, they're not following him because Van himself is worth following.
Aizen and Gin is similar, although in this case admittedly... less proven. But what we know of them -- the only canon about them -- is that a decade or more after he was promoted to captain, Gin still follows Aizen faithfully, even if it means giving up his position, his playthings, his psuedo-girlfriend. And the only explanation we have for this is that Gin understands Aizen: knows who he is, beneath all the masks, all the games, and chooses to follow him of his own free will. He isn't being manipulated like the other pawns, and he doesn't feel threatened. He's apparently quite comfortable being Aizen's follower.
There's no real reason for Gin to risk everything to go with Aizen. If he has an ulterior motive of his own, we don't know of it yet -- we only know that he serves Aizen without seeming to see it as a denegration of his own independence. Gin still sees himself as independent, as in control, and he doesn't grovel or cower or drool at Aizen; and that's what Aizen values about him.
Now, there's a very real chance that in the future we will learn that Gin has motives of his own for following Aizen: either to betray him, maybe taking the throne of heaven for himself, or because Aizen can do something for him, or because Aizen's goals align with his own desires (this is why Aizen-Tousen doesn't push this button). But that will change the dynamic that I see in their relationship right now, which is hot. It might make it more interesting, might make it less.
Final Fantasy XII has some of this (Fran->Balthier; Basch->Asch?) and those relationships I liiike. I see it in Nash->Sasarai in Suikoden 3 (at one time, that was about a debt that Nash owed Sasarai, but that was years ago -- why would Nash still be willing to risk his life to protect Sasarai from Luc?) and Tactics has it, although it's fucked up (Haruka->Kantarou).
*ponders others*
It's because I have a button. To put it verbosely, this button is, "A person who is powerful and in control, in his or her own right, who still willingly chooses to serve another person for unselfish reasons."
(Tales of the Abyss pushes this button a lot.)
Let's take Jade and Peony first, because they're the best example I have readily available. Jade is, by anyone's definition, a powerful and in-control kind of guy. He is incredibly strong in the fonic artes, and he's proven himself more than capable of gaining authority without outside intervention: his intelligence and abilities earned him adoption into the powerful, militarily-active noble family of Curtiss. He'd invented entire fields of research by the time he was in his teens, and is kind of indirectly responsible for about 75% of the game's plot. And for the icing on the cake, he's extremely sardonic and smug. This is a man who could easily do whatever he wanted. He has, in the past.
But Jade serves Peony.
And not just literally: I mean, Peony is the Emperor of Malkuth, and as a soldier and a noble of Malkuth, Jade is technically bound to him. But Jade is willingly bound to him, as well -- and for someone who is like, clinically antisocial, that's awfully impressive. After killing Professor Nebilim, Jade worked feverishly to resurrect her, only to create a monster. He believed fomicry, the art of creating replicas, was-- well, I won't say morally right or anything, I doubt he even thought about the morals of it. But he credits his friendship with Peony for his decision to stop it, and declare fomicry a "forbidden technology".
Something about Peony is worth it, to Jade. Maybe he sees in Peony something he doesn't have
(Of course, Peony also teaches his antisocial little brain all these important lessons, like, "how to feel sad," and, "what it means for people to die." In the Tales of Fandom game, Jade freaked out when Peony was stabbed, and had a muted conversation with Peony about grief and death and what they really mean etc. These are valuable lessons for your underdeveloped psychopath!)
This button is also pressed by Van->Guy->Luke. Van's loyalty to Guy, long after it stopped being convenient for him -- long after Guy outright told him that they weren't on the same side anymore -- when he still up to the end would've welcomed Guy, just because of that long-ago oath... that's really something, in your Big Bad Villain. And the same with Guy himself: he had every reason in the world to want to kill Luke, but he still found something worth following there, things that Luke could teach him that were worth learning, and he set all of that aside to insist that he is Luke's servant -- even when he'd regained his noble title and had no more reason to ever be anyone's servant again. (Well, except Peony's.) (And Peony turned out to be a way harsher taskmaster.) (In the sense of, even more irresponsible.)
But the Six God-Generals -- they don't hit this button. They are following Van, by and large, because his beliefs coincide with theirs, or because he can do something for them. Save Legretta, they're not following him because Van himself is worth following.
Aizen and Gin is similar, although in this case admittedly... less proven. But what we know of them -- the only canon about them -- is that a decade or more after he was promoted to captain, Gin still follows Aizen faithfully, even if it means giving up his position, his playthings, his psuedo-girlfriend. And the only explanation we have for this is that Gin understands Aizen: knows who he is, beneath all the masks, all the games, and chooses to follow him of his own free will. He isn't being manipulated like the other pawns, and he doesn't feel threatened. He's apparently quite comfortable being Aizen's follower.
There's no real reason for Gin to risk everything to go with Aizen. If he has an ulterior motive of his own, we don't know of it yet -- we only know that he serves Aizen without seeming to see it as a denegration of his own independence. Gin still sees himself as independent, as in control, and he doesn't grovel or cower or drool at Aizen; and that's what Aizen values about him.
Now, there's a very real chance that in the future we will learn that Gin has motives of his own for following Aizen: either to betray him, maybe taking the throne of heaven for himself, or because Aizen can do something for him, or because Aizen's goals align with his own desires (this is why Aizen-Tousen doesn't push this button). But that will change the dynamic that I see in their relationship right now, which is hot. It might make it more interesting, might make it less.
Final Fantasy XII has some of this (Fran->Balthier; Basch->Asch?) and those relationships I liiike. I see it in Nash->Sasarai in Suikoden 3 (at one time, that was about a debt that Nash owed Sasarai, but that was years ago -- why would Nash still be willing to risk his life to protect Sasarai from Luc?) and Tactics has it, although it's fucked up (Haruka->Kantarou).
*ponders others*
no subject
I think I could argue that Largo->Van would also fit that dynamic. He seems to speak highly of Van at the dock and after Arietta's duel, and while he does wish to overthrow the Score as well, I don't think that's the only reason he chose to remain loyal to him...Not that I actual mean to argue, it's just what I thought when reading that bit about the God-Generals and Van. xD Though yah, I can definitely see how not all the God-Generals are following him because they believe him to be a man worth following (Sync mainly follows him because he believes it's his purpose to and he'd be worthless without it, and Dist has his own agenda.)
The post was interesting, though I don't think it's a button I have, it's still interesting to see you explain it.
...I'm done babbling now, I'm sorry. xD;
no subject
You make a good point -- I think Largo is probably as close as the other God Generals get, but I still argue that Largo gains something by following Van. Largo believes in Van, is loyal to him, but if Van suddenly turned to Largo and went, "I've changed my mind -- the Score can stick around," I think Largo would defect. The reason (in my mind, at least) why Largo admires and follows Van is because of his conviction in going against the whole world... to do something Largo, himself, has reason to want to do. If Van weren't dedicated to abolishing the Score that stole Largo's life...?
Anyway! It's just personal preference. I've noticed that I tend to find the relationships that follow that pattern really compelling, if not outright shippy, so I thought I would muse on it in public at no provocation. XD
no subject
And hmm, you do make a good point there. I find it hard to believe that Van would ever give up that dedication, his conviction to overthrowing the Score is such a large part of him that to take it away would make him...not Van. At least to me anyway, because a large part of why I like his character so much is because of that conviction.
Though yah, if Van did just turn around and decide he wasn't going to go through with his plan, the respect Largo had for him would most likely be lost. Though I don't think it would be in the light of "The Score ruined my life and Van gave up on destroying it" so much as "If Van could give up on something he previously had so much conviction for, he's not a man to be followed." If that made any sense at all?
*nodnod* I tend to prefer dynamics where there's either a definite power imbalance or a power struggle myself, but I find it fascinating to read about other people's preferences. :3
no subject
I'm not much for power struggle, I think, just off the top of my head, without actually thinking of an example of such... but power imbalance is fun. :3
VAN?