sincere | Opinions are serious business! A tale of tolerance

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i'm bursting with opinions!

Opinions are serious business! A tale of tolerance

Writing for Yesterday
Another Side: 3264 words
The Last Dreamer: 790 words

I know those word counts look terrible, my massive fanfic opus compared to my actual awesome original stuff, but I'm trying to stick to a regular structure instead of just a lol-whenever structure with TLD. Since lol-whenever is my method with AS (I tend to do nothing, nothing, nothing, and then a sudden burst of AS whenever I'm inspired) it looks impressive now, but that impressiveness will definitely fade since I expect to only fill in a description or two for the next, oh, two weeks (since the next chapter is

libekory).

I sincerely believe in my policy of hate the stupid fans, not the subject matter. A lot of people get all "I hate the KH fandom, so I hate KH! I hate the fans, so I hate Ichigo and Orihime!" but I believe this is, itself, stupid. There are intelligent fans and good reasons out there for everything. To say "I've never played X but I hate its fangirls, so I hate it!!"

Look, remember the saying, "A person is intelligent. People are stupid." You can't let a group of people change your view of the source material. You're missing out.

I live this belief. I hate the KH fandom, but I still enjoy KH. A lot of Ichigo/Rukia fans make me want to strangle someone, but that doesn't make me hate Ichigo and Rukia's relationship.

And I feel like other people don't do this. They write off pairings and fandoms just because they're too popular, or the fans are too something, or they feel the need to denigrate the relationship between two characters just because they don't like them as a ship.

TLDR: Hate the shipper, not the ship. Hate the fandom, not the series.

It's rapidly becoming my favorite saying.

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That is so true.

Avatar is my favorite cartoon, and I love it, but I can't stand the fandom. Shipping wars are serious business within the Avatar fandom.

Most of the KH fandom I've known isn't too bad. Other than the ones on KHI forums. D8

It's my experience that 'shipping wars are always serious business. I don't think I've ever been in a fandom where there was a 'ship war and everyone said of it, "What a nice 'ship war, everyone's so considerate."

Gawd, if anyone ever finds a fandom like that, I hope they point me in its direction. D:

KH fandom is actually insane. If it's quieter now, I have to say that's just because there hasn't been a new game in the series for a while. So it's not red-hot anymore. When KHIII comes out, I predict a serious increase in craziness.

Although it might also help that there aren't "competing-for-canon" 'ships. People love or hate slash, but no one except totally crazy fringe fangirls think that Sora/Riku is going to be canon over Sora/Kairi. As opposed to Bleach, or Avatar, which both have more than one competing "main" het pairing. That definitely leads to more craziness.

No way, Riku/Mickey is totally canon. Duh.

I'm not a Katara/Aang fan, but I can't stand Zuko/Katara fangirls going "RAWR. CANON. D:<"

Sokka/Toph OTP.

I'm glad I've avoided most of the fandom drama then. XD

Forums are the worst of any fandom and I don't know why that is. I remember back in the day when forums were the entirety of fandom and they were fun. :\ I actually joined a fandom forum for a ship that I love and even there, in that environment, I wound up wanting to strangle those people.

Avatar is a perfect example of exactly the problem. You are expected to have a side on the ship war and be willing to fight and die for it and you must NEVEEEEER acknowledge any merit to the other side.

I've never heard someone go, "I ship Katara/Zuko, but those Katara/Aang shippers have a point!"

Why so fail. :\

I ship Katara/Aang, but Zuko/Katara shippers have a point. Really. Though it's not canon.

Honestly, I liked both Zutara & Kataang before I joined the rest of the fandom online. Though I'm a shipping whore. XD I really don't understand why the Avatar fandom treats 'ships like such serious business, while the creators don't really care.

Can't we all just get along? D8

YES. For the love of all that is holy, YES.

Forgive the copypasta, but my response to a certain secret a couple of days ago on

fandomsecrets is about this exact subject:

I understand a fandom making you reluctant to watch or play something (HI AVATAR), but if that's the only thing stopping you? You need to buck up, kiddo. I dislike the .hack and KH fandoms (among others) and LOATHE the Fosters Home for Imaginary Friends fandom (among some others), but I'm not going to let the fanbrats destroy the enjoyment I have for them.

There will always be bad apples in a fandom, even if you consider it to be one of the better ones out there (HI MARIMITE). My issues from TWEWY's fandom is that their characterization in fics is for the most part pure shit, but I don't actively look for anything in that fandom other than icons anyway.

tl;dr: If the fandom becomes too much, turn your back on them, flip them the bird and enjoy the game/story/show/movie in your own little Happy Place. Or at least with the fellow fans whom you know aren't idiots. :)

100% true. I mean, I hear about Phoenix Wright left and right. No one will shut up about it. Everyone thinks it's the coolest thing since sliced bread. If I were a stupid person, I would definitely be up in arms about hating Phoenix Wright because of its fangirls.

But you know what? I haven't played it, so I'm not going to make opinions on it. I'm sure they're good games.

Don't they realize what idiots they sound like, when they say, "I hate this game because so many people like it!"?

Play it! Make your own opinions on it! And those will be perfectly valid opinions! But "I refuse to form an opinion on it out of SPITE, TAKE THAT, FANGIRLS" is just -- no, sorry. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I make myself happy by living on the fringes of fandom. I don't go to forums, I don't have long conversations in communities. I just do my own thing, I post it to communities, and if other people like it, that's great! So as a result, I don't even understand nine times out of ten when people go, "zomg I hate Axel/Roxas fans so much I hate their pairing by association!!" because I'm like, "The only ones I've spoken to are intelligent and good-natured people... Where are you finding all these other ones?!" The only expection to this rule is Bleach fandom, where I'm in a community full of people who ship the opposite pairing in the ship war and constantly bash my favorite pairing, and I don't even know why I'm there.

Guilty (pun not intended) on not shutting up about Phoenix Wright. XD

Forums and communities are a double-edged sword for me. I admit I've been guilty of repeatedly lurking about forums that I know are only breeding grounds for either idiots, elitists or worst case scenario, both. Part of this is just masochism. *smile* The other part is because many of my fandoms are either the size of a nickel or tend to flock to one place, so they're usually the only places I can get more in-depth information from. And unfortunately smaller fandoms do not equal smarter fans, as much as people would like to believe...

"zomg I hate Axel/Roxas fans so much I hate their pairing by association!!"

THIS. THIS. I have never understood this excuse for not liking a pairing. Maybe as a factor in falling out of love with it, but not the sole reason for the hate. Yes, the Axel/Roxas pairing has its fair share of idiots, but like you, most of the fans I've met are very intelligent people. So shipping them equals being a dumb teenybopper fangirl not worth having an intelligent conversation with? Well, nice to meet you and fuck you too.

Bah, you don't bother me. ♥

That's it exactly. You don't have to like the pairing or the series, but all I want is for you to have good reasons for it, other than, "Well, the fans annoy me." If you genuinely don't like Axel/Roxas, for genuine reasons, then that is cool with me! But when you say "lol I hate Axel/Roxas. Why? Because of you. Nice to meet you, by the way," it's like, .......great.

Oh my god. Thank you. I hate it when people decide they don't like something because "everyone else does" or as you say, they hate the fandom. I find it stupid to judge something like a game or book or show based on the omg!crazy!people who watch it. I have my fair share of things that I dislike (DeathNote, Evangelion, whatever), but I've experienced them on my own to know I don't like them.

I don't really participate in the KH fandom. I still have several communities on my watch list, but I skip them for the most part. The only reason why I really have them there is sometimes I run across the occasional fic or art that's actually good, or - what I'm really after - news about the newer games (although I have sites like KHU and KHNet and KHInsider for that). Fandom, I find, is pretty fickle, and if the post about "fandomsecrets" or whatever the hell is any indication, some of these people are just the most petty bitches on the face of the earth. Or maybe that's just what everyone turns into when they can hide behind an "anonymous" label (hello, 4chan).

It's just ridiculous to turn away from something that you might actually enjoy just because a few people act like idiots and asshats. >_>

That's another thing, when they go "I refuse to play X because so many people like it!!" or, even better, "I haven't even played X but I hate it because so many people like it!!"

...why do they even do that? I hate Twilight fans and fandom just from F!S, but I didn't form an opinion on Twilight itself until I had the opportunity to read some of it.

But, really? Hating on things because lots of people think it's good? ...when did this become popular? Why it is allowed??

Why not just like what you like? Once upon a time, in the dark ages when the internets were still young, fandom was just a fledgling concept and you read books or watched TV or played a game because you wanted entertainment. Why does the existence of fandom change that?

KH fandom weirds me out. Everyone hates the pairings I like, no one ships the pairings I love, and 90% of what I see posted is crap. But that doesn't mean I hate KH now. XD I just, you know. Keep to my own corner of the internet, share my dorky glee with people who hang out there with me, and never encounter this hateful underbellyyyyy where Axel/Roxas fans roam the streets with baseball bats and everyone else fights the good fight in trying to save the world from them.

I know, right? Hate something because you sincerely don't like it, not because you think you're being a rebel by NOT liking something that is popular. Things get popular for a reason, you know? It has widespread appeal and has to be good on SOME kind of level.

KH fandom is so narrow minded a lot of the time, and I admit, I loves me some AkuRoku, but I have my other edgewise pairings that don't hardly get any love (AkuRiku, XigDem -- where did all THOSE people go?). But still, I don't really care what people like for pairings. There's enough characters for everyone LOL. I miss the days where I could find a lot of new stuff. Now admittedly I don't even like to LOOK for fanfiction because it's a pain in the ass to find stuff that isn't crap. @_@

There seem to be three kinds of people in Kingdom Hearts fandom: The people who like "popular" pairings like Axel/Roxas and Sora/Riku and whatnot, the people who like "rare" pairings and thus hate those pairings and instead write things like Vexen/Saix and Xigbar/Xaldin, and then het fans, who hate everyone else. :\

Aside from the fact that not everyone can be boxed in, like I'd like to think I'm all of those and then some, the problem with that is that the second group tends to avoid anyone used in the first group. Like, you can't be a rare pairing fan and also write Axel/Riku. You can't be a rare pairing fan and also write Xigbar/Demyx, because Demyx is popular zomg. The rare pairing fans only deal with characters like Saix, Vexen, Xaldin.

This is something I don't understand: When did it become so cool to hate Xigbar/Demyx?! I'm not talking about people who haven't thought about it before or people who find the idea cracky and weird, I'm talking about people who ship things like Luxord/Demyx and then BASH Xigbar/Demyx like that pairing murdered their children. WTF? I love that fluffy little pairing and you're telling me it's "rape" like that's canon, like Xigbar actually raped Demyx somewhere and I missed it? I don't get it. What made them start bashing, of all things, Xigbar/Demyx, which I have never heard talked about as a pestilence in fandom the way I have with Axel/Roxas.

*ttly steals your icon omg*

People take alternate pairings way too seriously, good god. X/Y is the best thing in the world but Y/Z IS HORRIBLE AND SHOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN >( >( >(

Uh, okay, people, you DO remember that we're talking about FICTIONAL characters here, right? Yikes. The Canon wars are also ridiculous. Until someone's kissing someone else, there's no canon ANYTHING in the KH verse (aside from already established Disney characters) outside of friendship.

It's seriously ridiculous that people feel the need to deliberately bash on particular pairings just because they don't like it. I've never understood why someone would go out of their way and waste their time just to purposefully and publicly spew about something they don't like. Keep it to your own journals, for cripes sake.

You aren't alone. I hate a lot of the KH fandom too. I used to be a part of khfanficrants, and after a while, I was just like...ugh. There was this one rant posted there that was teeming with smugness, even though it was attempting to 'straiten fandom out' (and it often sounded just plain retarded with the interjections of *sips tea* and shite)

But I don't hate any ship. I have preferences like anyone else, but all the Org13 pairings, the ones everyone likes to call 'canon', the super obscure crack ones, I can like any of them if they are done well.

I used to be in khfanficrants too, but it was so goddamn popular in that community to bash Axel/Roxas, a pairing I happen to like. It was the cool thing to do, and people who did it were cool, and it was really cool if you insinuated that Axel had had a lobotomy in between Chain of Memories and KH2. They still have that banner on their profile page that makes me want to go on endless rants about how he isn't a different character just because they revealed the motivations he had the whole time. HIS REASONS IN COM ARE CONSISTENT WITH HIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IN KH2, PEOPLE.

But I utterly agree. I have my favorite ships, but I'm not possessive of them in any way. If you write something the way I think it would happen, I'll be over that. For example, Marluxia/Larxene is my favorite, but I'll read any pairing you want to put Larxene in, as long as you make it IC. I don't want to read about how Axel and Larxene are cuddly bunnies who secretly love each other more than life itself. I want to read about how he's a manipulative bastard who plays buddy buddy with her but secretly laughs behind her back, and she seduces him but only does it because she likes the way it makes him squirm because she knows he doesn't really like her. And the reason why I want to read that is because that's what I see in canon. That's what makes sense in my head.

Alternate example: I hate Luke/Tear because I didn't like the way it was written, it felt heavy-handed and forced. I like Luke/Natalia, a lot. But I don't hate the idea of Luke/Tear. Someone could write it well and still make me smile.

Really, I think people who hate on other things -- especially for stupid reasons -- are insecure in their opinions. But there's no reason to be. I played Kingdom Hearts and I liked Marluxia/Larxene. But I don't feel threatened by people who like Axel/Larxene. I don't need to deflate their pairing.

Which is more than I can say for those Axel/Larxene fans, who (this has happened to a friend of mine!) stalk Axel/Roxas fans to their personal LJs, bash and badtalk them and denigrate Axel's relationship with Roxas in defiance of all canon evidence, and then post about it in khfanficrants as an example of how stupid Axel/Roxas fans are.

And those idiot sheep all agreed with her, because that's all they do there. They go "WORD" and "What an idiot. *sips tea*" and they don't apply thought, or they would've seen that all the were doing is supporting a troll in her mindless hate.

I don't want to read about how Axel and Larxene are cuddly bunnies who secretly love each other more than life itself. I want to read about how he's a manipulative bastard who plays buddy buddy with her but secretly laughs behind her back, and she seduces him but only does it because she likes the way it makes him squirm because she knows he doesn't really like her. And the reason why I want to read that is because that's what I see in canon. That's what makes sense in my head.

LINK TO THAT, PLZ? LOL

I hate when people don't give Axel the credit he deserves. They don't SIT DOWN and THINK about what kind of a character he really is and all the depth that he has to him and WHY he does the things he does. People who can't write good fanfic don't sit and think about their characters. They don't understand their motivations and they just write whatever the hell they feel like without understanding the personalities they're playing with. I think ALL the characters in these games have very complex sets of thoughts that get them to act the way they do, despite the fact that they're supposed to be "non existent" and "without feelings."

aewo;fjwoefj /rant >_>;;;

Ah yes, I remember that thing. I think KH2 Axel is still a bastard, especially when he does it for Roxas. I don't think there being one person he likes makes him any less cool or devious than he had been in CoM . By the way, if you haven't already, I highly suggest reading some of Quillslinger's work on fanfictiondotnet both because of her Axel/Roxas, and because her story 'alleycats' has a nice portrayal of Axel/Larxene that I think you'd agree with.

I've seen my share of Org13 pairing stories, and admittedly, a lot of them seem very OOC. I can't see Larxene in some kind of relationship with Axel that even approaches normalcy. People will interpret what is "in character" differently of course, but I'm not really a follower of the idea that 'everything is relative, therefore no one can claim one thing better than another'.

I dig all sorts of pairings for all sorts of reasons. I like the more popular, often considered 'canon' ones because every now and then you get an author who is a cut above the rest (and sometimes do it even better than the series did, IMO). I like the rare, crack like pairings because some people can make it work in such a creative fashion. Even things I've never thought of I like, because in theory someone can take it and make it awesome. I mean, again I have my preferences, and my own standards require me to see them being in-character, but...yeah.

(Secretly, I'm working on a post KH2 Sora/Larxene fic. Can I make it work? Only time will tell :O)

But, onto this:

Which is more than I can say for those Axel/Larxene fans, who (this has happened to a friend of mine!) stalk Axel/Roxas fans to their personal LJs, bash and badtalk them and denigrate Axel's relationship with Roxas in defiance of all canon evidence, and then post about it in khfanficrants as an example of how stupid Axel/Roxas fans are.

A definite sign that some people take fandom way too seriously. I'm not sure what they hope to gain by starting wank with a single person over their preferences in a videogame fanfiction universe, but it certainly speaks of insecurity. And I love when they run there, practically shouting in their posts "VALIDATE ME!!!"

I've personally grown unfond of most rant communities.

And those idiot sheep all agreed with her, because that's all they do there. They go "WORD" and "What an idiot. *sips tea*" and they don't apply thought, or they would've seen that all the were doing is supporting a troll in her mindless hate.

In these cases, I always find it annoying when people agree without knowing what they are talking about. It's especially amusing when someone who has actually looked into it and found that the OP is a troll disagree, prompting people to either backpedal or support a position they wouldn't have otherwise because they feel like they lose "status" by admitting to leaping to faulty conclusions.

Oh, and let's not forget the classic "well sorry for ranting in a rant community!". I absolutely hate that line. It is such a terrible cop-out and has been addressed time and again.

Ultimately, I would not agree that khfanficrants is a positive force in fandom.

*waits for someone to see this and put it on khfanficrants*

lol, I've already starred on KHFFR for my opinions. Someone dug up a rant I wrote in my LJ about something that annoyed me in KHFFR and they posted about it, outraged, on KHFFR! I received quite a few annoyed comments before one of the moderators (who is on my flist) went, "Uh, she made that rant months ago on her personal LJ, that's not cool," and it ended abruptly. XD Oh, KHFFR.

Fucking signed. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/slaingod/YOMJ7D6GH7CCHHYVEG62DYOVQV23GT2M.jpg)

There are so many fandoms I'd like to give a smack to(KH, Xeno, non-S-E RPG fandoms in general), but I don't let that affect my opinion on the source material. I like to judge something by its own merits, thank you.

On a more particular note, hating on Ichigo/Orihime because of its fans seems really backwards to me, since it is easily the nicest pairing fandom I've ever been a part of. I don't doubt there are idiots out there, but they're so few and far in-between that it's inconsequental.

non-S-E RPG

THANK YOU. I am beyond sick of people (Tales fandom, I'm looking at you) who think they have the entitlement to act like total pricks to anyone who likes S-E stuff and especially Final Fantasy, just because S-E and FF get more exposure. GOD FORBID you ever like both Square-Enix and non-Square-Enix stuff. Gods help you if you even try to mention any similarities between a Tales game and an FF game. I've had people from my own friends list lynch me for mentioning ONE SCENE of Tales of Symphonia that, to me, felt like a nod to Final Fantasy X. Serious business indeed.

Sorry to hijack your comment there. I'm just glad to find someone else that doesn't see the point in making rival gaming companies look like a witch hunt.

I don't mind the hijacking, because I totally agree.

Really, no matter what RPG fandom I join, from Tales, to Wild ARMs, to f-ing Star Ocean, there's at least one person in it behaving as if not liking FF is some kind of grand achievement. It's not. You just have different tastes than a large number of people, which is fine, but it's nothing to be an arrogant ass about.

Also, friends of yours got bent out of shape over that? I could list a whole number of similarities between ToS and FFX, but those by themselves don't reflect badly on either game.

People fail that way. I'm tired of being treated like every fangirl someone is personally sick of, because I like popular things. If I say, I like FF7! people immediately assume I'm one of the crazies who think FF7 was the best game of all time and had no flaws at all, etc. I'm not a rabid fangirl, you guys, I just like something. :\

I am also with you on all those things. I want more tolerant fans!!

That is the way to go. *thumbs up!* Judge the people who are getting on your nerves, not the thing they're rabidly standing for.

I utterly agree with you about Ichigo/Orihime fans. I've never met one who wasn't nice and considerate, and they generally kept any "hate" for Ichigo/Rukia to themselves. But I've met Ichigo/Rukia fans who swear up and down that most fans of Ichigo/Orihime wants to destroy them and their pairing. It's hard not to feel personally insulted by the things these people just casually attribute to Ichigo/Orihime fans, but it just goes to show you that I guess there's someone out there to justify everyone's worst opinions. :\ I blame forums.

My first thought is always "Is Xenogears fandom really wanky??" until I remember those other games.

Another school of thought is "you can hate character/ship/series but don't hate on its fans, they're people too you know".

I find myself more often in your policy though, that's why I'm slowly inching away from the Bleach forums... God knows what will happen if any pairing ever gets canon.

I would be happy to endorse that school of thought, but it's actually part of my school of thought. See, because I don't arbitrarily hate pairings because the fans disagree with me, I am capable of holding intelligent conversations with them. I am capable of respecting the reasons why they may like their pairings. I may personally not enjoy a pairing (Luke/Tear in TOA, Ichigo/Rukia in Bleach) (or a series!) but that doesn't mean I am incapable of enjoying their relationship (Tear as Luke's big-sisterly life-changing influence; Ichigo and Rukia as best friends) (or the series's good points!) and therefore treating people who like those things like human beings.

And I only lose that respect if they are dicks to me because of what I like. In which case I dislike them not because of their pairing, but because they are dicks.

Hence, hate the stupid people, not the thing they're being stupid about.

I have to admit I'm crossing my fingers for a non-ambiguous ending. XD You know what's funny -- I joined the fandom precisely because I was interested in seeing where I fell on the ship war, and then I found out, and I've had such agitation over it that I demand it be resolved.

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Opinions are serious business! A tale of tolerance

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I get on these long, rambling rants...

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