sincere | Of all the inconsiderate...

Current Mood: enraged
Current Music: the ANGRY whirring of my fan

Of all the inconsiderate...

What an asshole.

Those two of you who read this thing, you may or may not be acquainted with the renowned Silvermyth on my forum. Well, Myth-san seems to have a school assignment of some sort that requires her to interview someone who was somehow connected to the 9/11 attack. (I refuse to believe she could be doing this because it is that personally important to her; she's much too shallow. Or, if that is why, then it must be the "trendy" thing where she is, to pretend to be really humane.) I am a NY resident and I live only an hour away when I'm at home, and I had a relative who was actually in the World Trade Center, so she IM'd me and asked, without even a hello, what it was like to be in NY on that day.

I decided to humor her, because honestly, I have no qualms talking about it. As Neesama said, "It happened. It sucked. No amount of crying, weeping, mourning, gnashing of teeth or cries of vengeance will bring anybody back." That's more or less my opinion. I can talk about it, because it upsets me -- but more in a pained, personal loss kind of way than anything else. I won't dissolve into tears or mourn for the humanity of it all, etc.

And she insulted me for that.

I told her, in very in-depth detail, what that day was like for me, and what I felt. To inform the uninformed, I felt both a sense of tragedy -- more for the world than the actual event: I knew right away that it would be war, that we would see the world go to hell in a handbasket for this in some way or another -- and a very deep sense of anger.

I've always lived near NYC. I love NYC. One of the things I've always loved about it, one of the most constant, enduring symbols that I have interpreted to represent the city I so love, is its beautiful skyline. Every time I pass it in traveling I watch it, stare at it, memorize it; I could do that for hours. I love that skyline like I love my family and friends. It is, in a way, family and friends. That skyline meant a lot to me. And they destroyed that skyline -- destroyed the beautiful twin towers that shaped it distinctively. I will never be able to look at that skyline again without knowing that part of it is missing, and remembering what happened that day.

I had just finished telling her how angry I was, and I was going on to tell her about how my stepfather's employers tricked him out of being able to say he lost his job on 9/11. But she interrupted me.

She asked, "Don't you think it's a bit selfish to be angry about the skyline being ruined?"

What a fucking asshole.

I was so angry she would ask me that. Is there no MEANING in her pathetic little life? Is there NOTHING so important to her that she feels passionately about it? How can she ask me to relive that kind of dread and fear and then tell me I'm selfish because I was angry that my beloved city skyline was destroyed? The skyline that symbolizes my strong, resilient, uglybeautiful city, and will now always remind me of that day full of dread and fear and hurt?

How can someone like that even CLAIM to be sympathetic?

I went on to try and explain to her that thinking about the tragedy of people dying means nothing to me. Really, it doesn't. People die all the time. People, to boot, are stupid and self-interested and will walk all over you and always put their own interests first. People died, boo-hoo, big fucking deal, people die every single day in the so-called non-war we're not-waging in their countries right now, but you're not calling Dubya selfish for not thinking of them and weeping crystalline tears.

She told me that I was only proving to her that I was one of those stupid, selfish people.

I can't even describe my rage. There are no words for her inconsideration.

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that's one very close-minded person. @_@

Among other things. ^^;;;

HOLY FUCK WHAT A BITCH >:E it makes me mad just having to hear about it. ugh, i'm so sorry you had to deal with someone like that >< maybe she's never lived in a city before, so she wouldn't understand the symbolic resonance a skyline has? or maybe she's just a STUPID WHORE >:E

sorry, i get REALLY pissed when i hear about such closeminded people who apparently have nothing better to do than insult perfectly nice people like you. i mean, you even took time out of your day to actually TALK to her for her stupid fucking assignment (WHAT TEACHER ASSIGNS SOMETHING LIKE THAT?!?!?!) when you could have very well told her that it was something you don't want to talk about.

She's one of those PEOPLE. O_o You know the type, right? You talk to them once, and tolerate them, and they assume you're their best friend and they IM you every freaking day with details of their trivial life or plaguing you with questions when you're a busy person AAAAARGH. ^^;;; Like you have nothing better to do than cater to their boredom. It'd be one thing if they had anything intelligent to say, but it's always so egocentric...

As for the assignment. O_o High schools are like that. We had all sorts of assignments like, "Go speak to a Vietnam/WW2 veteran and get his account on the war." I guess they got all excited about a horrible thing happening recently, and waited only two years before digging it up again. ~_~

Anyhow. I think what bugs me the most is that she posted something in my forum declaring that she intended the topic to stand as "tribute to all those who died on 9/11."

She's so busy being righteously sympathetic that she forgot to be... righteous or sympathetic. O_o

She posted a poem in that topic, too. It's quite bad. XD Thanks for sympathizing. It makes me feel better to have other people ranting about her too. ^_~

That was a horrid thing to say to you. I can't believe she would actually do that.

I know. O_o I mean, even if her accusation wasn't so horrible, it's not like she didn't DEMAND that I tell her about an event that was obviously upsetting to me... *le sigh*

That's rude. Even if she thought that inside, it's still rude to just SAY it like that. Isn't that, like, a rule in etiquette? Act cool and respectful despite any strong emotions within?

I happen to understand what you said about the skyline. God knows I get angry when they cut down a tree.

It's almost like... joking around about the death of someone you really love. You just don't do or say things like that. -_-;

Exactly. It isn't really that she THOUGHT it that bothered me. She can think I'm selfish all she likes, in her shallow little skull. *not very charitable ^^;;* But the moment she accuses me of being selfish, and insists that she was right and I am a horrible person when I'm in the middle of explaining WHY I don't think I'm selfish... O_o Merciful Jesus, girl, where's your TACT? You know you're asking someone about a sensitive topic; did it never occur to you to keep your condescending insults to yourself?

My forum, man. ^^;;; We got some real winners on there.

:P Twit <--Says it all

*hugs you*

Thanks. XD

I can understand what the skyline ment to you! I mean, I've lived near DC all my life and I know if one of DCs main features was destroyed, I'd be majorly upset about it. Specially the Washington Memorial... I love that damn thing. I always visit it when I'm in DC... I've flown kites in the park around it and sat under it's cherry blossom trees.

It's like, these things become part of a person who grew up in the area. So really, I guess it's kinda like if they are destroyed or changed, a part of you is changed or lost. Gah... I'm making no sense...

But yes... Myth... you were doing a favor anyways, so she had no right to criticise you for anything -_- Maybe she's just really really untactful and... not to bright? o___O;;; *hides*

I know, that's exactly what it is! When you live someplace, you love it. It's your home. O_o My towers! My skyline! My city! That was my WORLD you just knocked down.

Selfish. O_o Bah. I'd like to see HER deal with trauma.

I don’t know… there are some things you can say that age doesn’t matter. Like with grammar and spelling. But when it comes to the big things, like death, disaster, and loss -- kids just don’t understand it.

And before my head is bitten off, just do the math. If Myth’s fifteen now, that means two years ago she was 12 or 13. You honestly don’t have a good grasp on those things. When we’re reminded of events like that, ones that effect ourselves and the people around us so much, we slip back into that mindset. So when Myth was watching those videos in her class, she slipped back into her 12/13 year old mindset. The world’s big, and values and security you were taught in school just seemed to have exploded before your eyes. You can’t comprehend it. How could something like this happen?

She didn’t know about difference in social classes, not so early in a school year. Racial boundaries, intelligence, and wealth -- not really a big concern to the person of that age. So when she’s reliving what you are, she sees you, Kay, at 18 feeling these emotions and seeing the day unravel before you. And she sees herself back in school, back in junior high and hearing similar things over a PA system an hour after you witnessed.

So what she saw was death, loss of life and despair. She was confused. You saw your towers going down. You were worried for you family and friends. And you were of age to hang on to someone, or yourself, and move on.

You don’t have that at 12 or 13 years old. That’s when you fully realize how small you are. And that was probably her first time ever learning that people overseas, across the nation, or next door aren’t always what the sitcoms or cartoons show them to be. It was an awakening for her. It was a concern and loss for you.

Neither of you were right, and neither wrong. You just had, have, and will continue to keep different views on the event. That’s all.

So when she said “aren’t you being selfish” she just didn’t know that you saw the event in a different way than she did, because she thinks it affected everyone the same.

You raise a very interesting and intelligent point. Please don't treat me like a murdering harpy with no sense of rationality about to bite off the head of anybody who wanders across my path. O_o After all the time you've known me, I'd think you'd have known better than to think I would ever do such a thing.

Anyhow, I have no problem with her opinion. I have never had a problem with her opinion. She's entitled to it; I don't care what it is. I have a problem with the way she smacked me in the face with her opinion -- the fact that she deliberately ran headfirst into a conversation with someone she's approaching as a TRAUMA VICTIM and pokes them about their TRAUMATIC EVENT and then insults them for their feelings about the event.

You're right, I'm sure, in that her opinion is different and she doesn't understand mine. I have no problem with that. My problem is that she took what is probably among the top five most horrifying moments in the more than two decades I've been alive, and told me that I wasn't entitled to my feelings about it. My problem is that I tried to explain it to her, and she only interrupted me again to declare that I was selfish. My problem is that she is close-minded and petty.

I want to see her approach a WW2 veteran with the same respect she gave me. I had friends die that day, my family will never be the same again, a symbol of my proud, wonderful city toppled and fell before the eyes of hundreds of millions of people -- and she called me selfish because of the way I mourned.

I don't care how old she is, and not how old she was. THAT was horribly offensive.

So, for the record, you were right as far as you went. You just had the wrong idea in mind as my problem.

I behave as such because you’ve ended discussions before the other side has been able to work through your point before. I believe something similar but on a lesser scale has happened here. And the reason I seem pro-Myth is because she came to me and I can see what she’s saying (as I can what you are saying), but still -- neither is right and neither is wrong.

Now, I did tell her that she should have recognized that you had a different feeling about the topic than she did. She was simply curious, and yes, she did not respect your feelings by working her way through them. But she also didn’t know them, or else she wouldn’t have asked, and she’s not experience in ways of approaching them either. Sometimes when you’re trying to come to an understanding on one part, you end up saying something that upsets the other person, but you just don’t know it. How often has this happened between us?

And my post proves to you both, it’s really hard to understand how others felt about things. She said that I made her out to sound shallow, I had to point out that at 13 years, it’s okay to be confused about loss. I told her earlier today that the best way for her to figure out how she feels and others feel is to look into people’s art and writings.

I’m amazed and honestly a bit upset that you’d mock her poetry. Even though it’s been on your board before (as I believe she said) that’s still one of the ways that she works out her feelings and expresses them to others. By snarking at it, you’re kind of pushing down on that freedom and excellent way for her to learn about her self and her views. That’s what makes people fear others. To have people laughing at what you’ve done to show joy, sadness, or confusion. It doesn’t have to be great, it’s just a way for her to express herself, and that ought to be encouraged, not laughed at.

She’d obviously approach a WW2 vet differently. For one, she wasn’t around then. By having lived through something as profound as 9/11, she’s just looking for people with common reflections on it. She’s not from New York. We all know that New York has it’s own little culture that is distinctly separate from other parts of the nation. She doesn’t know that not just the people, but the buildings, the monuments, the little hot dog stands, taxis, etc. That’s all part of New York, the people, and the special ness that just… is the place. Outsiders don’t understand it, but they get some sort of feel of it when visiting. I know that much.

And I’m not trying to make it sound like New York is Care Bear… land or whatnot, but New York’s just one of those places you respect because it’s been looked up to for a long time. It’s been around for a long time. You can’t make kids understand that and it’s history in one sitting. That’s not possible. XP

My point with the rambling about New York’s special-ness, what she meant by “selfish” was your saying “my skyline.” She’s not from New York, she doesn’t understand the connection between you and the city. That is what I’m getting at. Perhaps if she had known that, after I explained it to her, then she wouldn’t have said that.

But seriously, you’re always wondering why people get scared of talking to you, and well… this is kind of like an example. I’m not saying it’s you… 100%, but I can explain it better at another time and place, I’m sure. If you’re interested in my… theory.

And that’s my soap box rant for now... o_O

And... I did not know that she had already responded to you... *blink*

Ju-san, I really can't argue this whole point -- I feel like you're missing the fact that I am truly hideously offended by what she said.

I have to reiterate: She asked me to tell her something INCREDIBLY personal. I told her, in PAINFUL DETAIL, things about my life that I have only mentioned to my closest friends in PASSING. (Albeit because they understood what I meant right away.) She wanted me to relive TRAUMA to satisfy her curiosity, and I was willing to do that.

She interrupted me, in the middle of that, to tell me that I was selfish. Twice. The second time while I was trying to explain to her why the deaths didn't horrify me, but the city's wound did.

Everything else is superficial. Whether or not her perspective is the same, whether or not she's from around here and feels similar loyalties... She told me, twice, in the middle of an attempt to explain to her one of the most deeply affective events of my entire life, that I was being selfish.

I stopped her, and warned her. I made clear my displeasure, blocked her, and wrote about my frustration, anger, and hurt on my LJ -- where she later intruded to be bitter and juvenile and, sandwiched in between bitter and juvenile, apologetic.

I think that you're underestimating both of us. You're assuming that I jumped to this conclusion because I wasn't capable of seeing the issue rationally -- and in a way, you're right; while I can see it rationally, I won't react to it rationally, because goddamn it, this changed my life and ruined my family. You're assuming that 13 is too young to understand that tragedy deserves respect, and that she couldn't possibly understand that it was bad to tell me repeatedly that I was selfish for my reactions to suffering. If she'd been ten, MAYBE I could allow that. But she's 15 now, and she should know better.

On a side note, I commented, once, in response to a friend's support, that I thought the poem she posted was bad -- and I DO think it was egotistical of her to have posted it there. I didn't say it gratuituously. I said it in the same sense I would say, "You know, this novel we're reading in ENG 210 is very long-winded." I feel it has faults. If you think it would be better, I could take it to the forum and explain what I didn't like about it, line by line, and why I felt that it was a bad poem. I thought that was a bad idea, and refrained from it in the first place, keeping my dislike to a single comment, not the main entry, in my own livejournal. Really, it had nothing to do with her -- and had nothing to do with you. You of all people should know that sometimes, things are not meant for other people to read.

Additionally -- I hate to have to make this personal, but I can't help but feel that this is an attack from you, and that you are deliberately avoiding the fact that I was hurt by what she said, insisting that "neither of us were right or wrong", because of our personal conflict. You haven't spoken to me once since our problem with the HPRP, except when I told you I was quitting as a mod because -- honestly -- I felt like you were avoiding me and you couldn't afford to do that with a mod... and now, when you insist that my pain doesn't matter because she WAS a child when an event happened years ago, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the fact that she said something TODAY that I can not forgive so easily.

I'm really very sorry, especially if you had no intention of those underlying issues, but please stop. Your arguments are hurting me a lot more than the original offense did. That made me angry; this just makes me desperately unhappy.

Well, I'm oh-so-glad that my poem was crap. And Ju's right; that was the first time that I have ever faced any real death or horrible disaster.

Okay, Kay, I'd like to straighten some things out with you. One: I did not do it out of pity, or for an assignment. I was just curious what it was like to be in NY during the attacks, and I didn't know anyone else from NY. Two: The way you said that it was YOUR skyline...it did sound selfish. The way you were phrasing things, it sounded like you didn't even CARE that people were dying, not in the least, just that YOUR skyline had been destroyed. I veiw that as VERY selfish. Three: I don't think that I would understand what a skyline means to you, just for the simple fact that there are no skylines in Wisconsin. I'm sorry that I don't have your prospective on these things. And finally: I'm sorry. Really, I am. I knew that this was something traumatic to talk about for you. I should have really thought more before I typed. But next time, don't bite my head off, and give me at least a chance to explain myself or get a better explaination of things.
~MYTH~
By the way: I do NOT IM you every day with every little detail of my life. I do IM you occasionally when I'm bored, or to show you some of my art to get your opinion, but you aren't even talkative, so I just leave you be. So DON'T think of me as "One of THOSE people."

1) You didn't approach it very well, then, did you, to insult the only person you had to ask about?

2) Did you think that by "my skyline" I meant that it belonged to me? That I held stock in it that would go down now? What on earth made you think that my outrage at the destruction of the Twin Towers was selfish?

3) Your inexperience, and your childishness as mentioned earlier, are not excuses for your hideously rude behavior to someone doing you a favor.

Finally) How dare you "apologize" to me after telling me again and again that I'm wrong to be offended by the offensive thing you said? That's not an apology, no matter what you say afterwards, and certainly not if afterwards you insist again that it's my fault for overreacting.

I warned you that I was offended when you interrupted my explanation with the announcement that I was selfish. I gave you the chance to defend yourself or take back what you said. If you had asked me to explain further, I would have.

You didn't.

I warned you. I followed through. Don't cling to to me with one hand and shake your fist at me with the other. I am not sympathetic and I feel no pity for you because you are young or live far away.

Please don't speak to me again, if this is your idea of an apology.

Jesus Christ, people. Didn't any of you know anybody even remotely near NYC? I somehow managed not to find out about it all day long, but you betcha when I DID, I sat at the computer worrying about telecomm lines and when Kay popped up she got tackled with "Is everyone all right over there?"

It's a skyline. It's a symbol. People die every day. More people have died since the World Trade Center was built than died 9/11/2001. It was an awful thing to have happened, and I don't condone it in any way, but the point is that those towers were a tangible reminder of humanity's accomplishments on Earth. The people who destroyed them knew that they were important, else they wouldn't have been targeted, but there's no possible way they could know why. Their disappearance leaves a scar on a city of millions of people that will never quite go away. That skyline is world-famous as the example of a Big City -- Tokyo-Yokohama is larger population-wise, but I dare you to find anyone in the Western world who wouldn't have recognized the jagged, geometric sky-scape of New York City. It meant something.

All of this is beside the point. It was an insensitive question to ask anyone. And, as Kay does not get stabbity very often, I, as her official ninja, would recommend that anyone who feels they need to debate this further go discuss amongst yourselves, rather than taking it up with her again.

someone like that is a stupid fucktard hoping for crying weepweep sentiment involving flowers, puppies, and small tow-headed children awkwardly reading out the names of the fallen.

the symbolism of a skyline and the disquiet of looking for something that is familiar and represents home only to find it gone, she obviously lacks grasp.

I don't know jack shit about new york.

when someone set the old capitol building (in the center of campus) in my college town on fire and our ancient wooden and gold-leaf dome went up like a flashfire while I watched as I walked to work that morning, and all that was left was a smoldering skeleton I felt sad for days. Not because of the huge tragic loss but because that symbol represents our school and town and it was gone. I felt like there was a hole where there should have been something and poked it for days like a tooth with a cavity.

the loss for new yorkers is so much greater that I can't imagine how someone could not understand what seems to be such a simple fucking concept.

in summary: stupid bitch, don't waste your anger. -_-;

I really do. *_* You managed to capture the essence of my feelings and my anger perfectly. I feel released.

That's EXACTLY what she wanted: pretty, generic sentiments of grief. She didn't want a personal account, my feelings; she just wanted to hear a nice, pat-and-dry story about angsty beautiful people far, far away.

And that's EXACTLY what it's like, that sort of symbolic monument to all the things you love that will never be there again. That skyline told me that New York City, uglybeautiful and chaotic though it was, was healthy and proud and defiant. And even though I'll always remember how my city came together and we still stand strong, that place will always be missing on the skyline.

Thank you SO much for your opinion -- what you just said means so much to me.

I feel great now. XD

r,really? I thought you hated me! XD; I'm so relieved~ my wenkitten assures me it is okay ^^;

but, I'm glad I could say something to get you out of being pissed off. I love a good rant as much as anyone, but at the same time, being angry, while sometimes initially fun, eventually becomes unpleasant and annoying. ^^;

I'm sorry about my questionable grammar in the above comment. I see so many whacked-out sentences and run-ons that it makes me hurt inside. ^^;

I don't hate you. *beam* I admire your writing, and you're intelligent and smart and opinionated... I'm just very quiet usually. O_o But I do love you! Ye shall be my role model. I aim to be as angry and opinionated as you are someday. XD

Anyhow, I don't mind your grammar at all. ^__^ That post was actually sodamncool I had to share lines of it. Not even because it agreed with me, but because they were just cool. For example, your first sentence -- "someone like that is a stupid fucktard hoping for crying weepweep sentiment involving flowers, puppies, and small tow-headed children awkwardly reading out the names of the fallen" -- that's like POETRY. Angry modern semi-rap poetry. XD I put it on the suite's dry-erase board for cool quotes.

So, as you can see, questionableness (?) sometimes works. ^___^

(Really. Best sentence ever.)

I know Silvermyth, personally. She's not trendy, and yes, sometimes she has troubles dealing with people. In such situations you have to take that into consideration. She's far from shallow. And she shares my belief about materialistic possesions. I believe that she misunderstood why you were angry over the skyline. I don't think she understood that you weren't upset about the single fact that the skyline was gone, but was also upset because of what the skyline ment, in abstract, to you. I would like to appologize on her behalf. Sorry she misunderstood you, or whatever it may have been. Truely, you would have to agree with her if your only anger was simply about the skyline. But as I see, it goes deeper, it goes to the point of what that skyline stood for. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows, if so, I'm sorry. Have a wonderful life, and please, lives matter, whether you preceive it to be an insignificant one or not. :)

After reading all the comments my eyes burn... dang computer screen. Anyways... all of you have very valid oppinions, and all speak them wonderfully. I would just like to state that what happened, happened.

I agree that there's more to this than the people lost, but you can't begin to forget them, or the people that were lost trying to save others. You can't forget about the small stories, the people who held the elevator, gave up their spot, helped others, ect. Many people died, they died with honor.

Next is the towers. They no longer stand. They can't be brought back. They stood for our country's ability to grow, and to rise above others, our freedom. To each person, they ment something. They were torn from the lives of people, just as family members and friends were torn from others.

It's true that people die every day, and honestly I'm sick of people 'honoring' the lives of those who died at 9/11. Why, as a whole, do people only honor the lives of those who died in some great tragedy? Sadly, it is because the person's life ended on a marking point. Every day some person dies as a hero, and that person's story goes untold. It's a disgrace. I say we instead take this day to honor ALL lives that have been lost to a kind or considerate cause. And yes, to also remember the WTC, which was also taken. All differences aside. Please, just... let's not argue this, let the topic rest in peace, unless you have something to add that shouldn't offend someone. And if what I've said has offended anyone (which I cannot begin to comprehend why) I am truely sorry.

May everyone have a great life, great luck, and may all of you take pride in what you have.

You do make a lot of sense. We should have a day to honor the "every-day hero." They deserve it. Why should they go unnoticed, yet others, dying in a huge event, get all the attention? It's just not fair.

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Of all the inconsiderate...

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Hmm.

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I love you!

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And the kitty jumped into the flames...

Re: And the kitty jumped into the flames...

And I'm freezing....